Guidebook for Denver

Yana
Guidebook for Denver

Essentials

Great Mexican grocery - cheap produce, cheeses, pastries.
Mi Pueblo Market
125 Knox Ct
Great Mexican grocery - cheap produce, cheeses, pastries.
Major supermarket for any last minute needs
513 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
King Soopers
1950 Chestnut Pl
513 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Major supermarket for any last minute needs
great asian supermarket
15 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Pacific Ocean Marketplace - Denver
2200 W Alameda Ave
15 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
great asian supermarket
all vegan market!
24 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
NOOCH | Vegan Market
10 E Ellsworth Ave
24 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
all vegan market!

Food Scene

One of the top 2 Thai places in Denver
124 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
US THAI CAFE
5228 W 25th Ave
124 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
One of the top 2 Thai places in Denver
Tasty very casual fish n chips place
51 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
GB Fish and Chips
2175 Sheridan Boulevard
51 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Tasty very casual fish n chips place
Standard inexpensive Mexican food
8 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Taqueria Mexico #1
3800 W Colfax Ave
8 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Standard inexpensive Mexican food
One of my favorite local family-owned pizza places in Denver. Great fresh pizza, tasty pasta entrees and salads as well. Fantastic Happy Hour specials (slice & a beer for very cheap).
61 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Tony P's Bar & Pizzeria
3000 Zuni Street
61 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
One of my favorite local family-owned pizza places in Denver. Great fresh pizza, tasty pasta entrees and salads as well. Fantastic Happy Hour specials (slice & a beer for very cheap).
A Denver icon! Shaped like a giant milk jug, great ice cream, all outdoor patio seating, and a slide for kids to slide down. The line out the door is deserved.
538 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Little Man Ice Cream
2620 16th St
538 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
A Denver icon! Shaped like a giant milk jug, great ice cream, all outdoor patio seating, and a slide for kids to slide down. The line out the door is deserved.
Tasty italian, many delicious pasta dishes.
104 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Trattoria Stella
3470 W 32nd Ave
104 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Tasty italian, many delicious pasta dishes.
One of my favorite coffee shops in town. Great pourover coffee, nice snacks, nice atmosphere, local micro-market in the back.
104 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Black Eye Coffee - LOHI
3408 Navajo St
104 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
One of my favorite coffee shops in town. Great pourover coffee, nice snacks, nice atmosphere, local micro-market in the back.
Great coffee shop - both the coffee and the food (at least the little i've had of it) are excellent, good atmosphere.
275 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Crema Coffee House
2862 Larimer St
275 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Great coffee shop - both the coffee and the food (at least the little i've had of it) are excellent, good atmosphere.
Really excellent pizzeria certified by the pizza board of Napoli. Includes gluten-free options.
70 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Marco's Coal Fired | Ballpark
2129 Larimer St
70 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Really excellent pizzeria certified by the pizza board of Napoli. Includes gluten-free options.
Fantastic artisan pizzas (including gluten-free options), good sandwiches & salads, and many excellent craft brews on tap. Love this place.
217 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Hops & Pie/Berkeley Donuts
3920 Tennyson St
217 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Fantastic artisan pizzas (including gluten-free options), good sandwiches & salads, and many excellent craft brews on tap. Love this place.
excellent, not-too-expensive Italian food and gelato. good caprese sandwich.
120 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
PARISI pizzeria, trattoria e vino
4401 Tennyson St
120 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
excellent, not-too-expensive Italian food and gelato. good caprese sandwich.
The best vietnamese pho noodle soup in town. (and one of the few where you can choose a true vegetarian broth)
41 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Phở 95 Vietnamese Restaurant
1401 S Federal Blvd
41 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
The best vietnamese pho noodle soup in town. (and one of the few where you can choose a true vegetarian broth)
Delicious vietnamese food - top notch.
49 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
New Saigon Restaurant
630 S Federal Blvd
49 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Delicious vietnamese food - top notch.
new orleans-inspired cuisine in an adorable victorian house.
178 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Sassafras American Eatery, Highlands
3927 W 32nd Ave
178 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
new orleans-inspired cuisine in an adorable victorian house.
delicious ramen & steamed buns!
319 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Uncle
2215 W 32nd Ave
319 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
delicious ramen & steamed buns!
excellent restaurant owned by a couple friends of mine. fresh seasonal cuisine.
107 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
duo Restaurant
2413 W 32nd Ave
107 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
excellent restaurant owned by a couple friends of mine. fresh seasonal cuisine.
tasty gelato & ice cream, although i think they serve food as well.
60 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Spuntino
2639 W 32nd Ave
60 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
tasty gelato & ice cream, although i think they serve food as well.
little local coffee shop, occasional live music
Edgewater Coffee Company
5224 W 25th Ave
little local coffee shop, occasional live music
I haven't been here yet but the whole city is buzzing about it.
Corner House
I haven't been here yet but the whole city is buzzing about it.
Very good, higher end mexican food. Guacamole made to order at your table. Good brunches as well.
138 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Lola Coastal Mexican
1575 Boulder St
138 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Very good, higher end mexican food. Guacamole made to order at your table. Good brunches as well.
One of the best foodie havens. Very hip, quite pricey, but very good. Situated in a converted mortuary.
743 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Linger
2030 W 30th Ave
743 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
One of the best foodie havens. Very hip, quite pricey, but very good. Situated in a converted mortuary.
good pizza, good people
12 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
The New York Pizza Pub
4334 W 35th Ave
12 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
good pizza, good people
All vegetarian restaurant, anything can be made vegan, enough to please most omnivores as well. A local favorite. Great vegan milkshakes & ho-ho cupcakes.
225 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Watercourse Foods
837 East 17th Avenue
225 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
All vegetarian restaurant, anything can be made vegan, enough to please most omnivores as well. A local favorite. Great vegan milkshakes & ho-ho cupcakes.
Tasty tamales, casual/inexpensive.
17 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Tamale Kitchen
2045 Sheridan Boulevard
17 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Tasty tamales, casual/inexpensive.
Much more than a mexican restaurant. Will blow the minds of kids ~4-10. Like a low-tech chucky cheese but replace the animatronic mice with cliff divers. There's a south park episode all about it.
137 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Casa Bonita
6715 W Colfax Ave
137 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Much more than a mexican restaurant. Will blow the minds of kids ~4-10. Like a low-tech chucky cheese but replace the animatronic mice with cliff divers. There's a south park episode all about it.
good authentic mexican food & agua fresca
37 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Patzcuaro's Mexican Restaurant
2616 W 32nd Ave
37 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
good authentic mexican food & agua fresca
It looks like a complete hole in the wall, but the food is surprisingly good. Full-page vegetarian & vegan menu (w/ fake meat dishes -- very tasty), in addition to a regular non-veggie menu.
7 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Sidewok Cafe
4930 W Colfax Ave
7 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
It looks like a complete hole in the wall, but the food is surprisingly good. Full-page vegetarian & vegan menu (w/ fake meat dishes -- very tasty), in addition to a regular non-veggie menu.
Family greasy-spoon style diner. I havent been personally though I've been meaning to check it out -- my neighbors like it. Cash only.
Swift's Kitchen
4300 W Colfax Ave
Family greasy-spoon style diner. I havent been personally though I've been meaning to check it out -- my neighbors like it. Cash only.
Best Ethopian food in Denver.
7 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
The Ethiopian Restaurant
2816 E Colfax Ave
7 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Best Ethopian food in Denver.
My favorite restaurant in Denver. Traditional japanese. NOT your trendy glossy sushi place. They say they're not substitution friendly but nicely accommodated me being veggie. museum in back.
90 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Domo Japanese Country Food Restaurant
1365 Osage St
90 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
My favorite restaurant in Denver. Traditional japanese. NOT your trendy glossy sushi place. They say they're not substitution friendly but nicely accommodated me being veggie. museum in back.
A well-kept secret. Good authentic mexican food, w/ a whole page of vegetarian & vegan options.
21 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Tarascos New Latino Cuisine
470 S Federal Blvd
21 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
A well-kept secret. Good authentic mexican food, w/ a whole page of vegetarian & vegan options.
tasty vietnamese!
21 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Saigon Bowl Denver
333 S Federal Blvd
21 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
tasty vietnamese!
Delicious vietnamese Pho soup (including vegetarian options) and boba tea.
38 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Phở Duy Denver
925 South Federal Boulevard
38 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Delicious vietnamese Pho soup (including vegetarian options) and boba tea.
My favorite vietnamese noodles in Denver. They have vegetarian options and boba tea as well.
41 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Phở 95 Vietnamese Restaurant
1401 S Federal Blvd
41 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
My favorite vietnamese noodles in Denver. They have vegetarian options and boba tea as well.
Delicious restaurant w/ lots of veggie (and even raw I believe) options, tasty brunch & drinks as well.
515 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Root Down
1600 W 33rd Ave
515 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Delicious restaurant w/ lots of veggie (and even raw I believe) options, tasty brunch & drinks as well.
Hip bar & restaurant. Great food, lots of veggie & vegan options, often good music playing.
118 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Sputnik
3 S Broadway
118 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Hip bar & restaurant. Great food, lots of veggie & vegan options, often good music playing.
great thai food.
23 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Thai Monkey Club
102 S Broadway
23 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
great thai food.
yummy thai
18 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Spicy Basil
1 Broadway
18 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
yummy thai
one of my favorite sushi places.
34 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Go Fish Sushi Denver
1 Broadway
34 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
one of my favorite sushi places.
unique restaurant, tasty desserts.
106 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Beatrice & Woodsley
38 S Broadway
106 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
unique restaurant, tasty desserts.
Tasty food, huge beer selection. Try the mussels!
26 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Cheeky Monk Beer Cafe
534 Colorado Boulevard
26 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Tasty food, huge beer selection. Try the mussels!
Truly delicious for brunch or dinner.
11 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Le Central Affordable French Restaurant
112 E 8th Ave
11 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Truly delicious for brunch or dinner.
Tasty breakfasts, very close walk to the Art Museum, Clyfford Still Museum, library, etc.
16 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Dozens
323 W 13th Ave
16 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Tasty breakfasts, very close walk to the Art Museum, Clyfford Still Museum, library, etc.
3 words: chili relleno burrito!
72 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
El Taco De Mexico
714 Santa Fe Dr
72 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
3 words: chili relleno burrito!
great coffee shop
115 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Thump Coffee
1201 E 13th Ave
115 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
great coffee shop
finally, a cute little independent coffee shop right downtown.
26 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Little Owl Coffee
1555 Blake St
26 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
finally, a cute little independent coffee shop right downtown.
Great restaurant and bar (very veggie & vegan friendly)
357 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
City O' City
206 E 13th Ave
357 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Great restaurant and bar (very veggie & vegan friendly)
The most delicious waffles you've ever had, run by two very very nice people, Tom and Jasmine. Let Jasmine know I recommended it and it will make her smile!
18 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Waffle Up!
18 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
The most delicious waffles you've ever had, run by two very very nice people, Tom and Jasmine. Let Jasmine know I recommended it and it will make her smile!
Amazing new ramen restaurant.
25 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
TOKIO
2907 Huron St
25 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Amazing new ramen restaurant.
cute little coffee shop that doubles as a mini used bookstore
27 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Tenn Street Coffee
4418 Tennyson St
27 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
cute little coffee shop that doubles as a mini used bookstore
one of my favorite coffeeshops for sitting & reading, getting some work done, or catching up w/ friends
152 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
St Mark's Coffee House
2019 East 17th Avenue
152 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
one of my favorite coffeeshops for sitting & reading, getting some work done, or catching up w/ friends
love this place. have coffee, drinks, or lunch while they fix your bike (they are honest and won't over-charge). cool place even if you don't have a bike!
65 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
The Denver Bicycle Cafe
2217 E 21st Ave
65 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
love this place. have coffee, drinks, or lunch while they fix your bike (they are honest and won't over-charge). cool place even if you don't have a bike!
Reasonably priced sushi nearby. Happy hour sushi deals every day (till 6 i think) & all-you-can-eat on sundays
24 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Shiso Sushi & Oyster Bar
2255 Sheridan Boulevard
24 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Reasonably priced sushi nearby. Happy hour sushi deals every day (till 6 i think) & all-you-can-eat on sundays
My favorite breakfast in Denver. Try the Hank's eggs - it's no longer on the menu but is my favorite mound of scramble/potatoes/veggies w/ fresh avocado on top.
215 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Lucile's Creole Cafe
275 S Logan St
215 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
My favorite breakfast in Denver. Try the Hank's eggs - it's no longer on the menu but is my favorite mound of scramble/potatoes/veggies w/ fresh avocado on top.
BEST ICE CREAM IN DENVER. This is quite a hike away, but worth it!
48 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
High Point Creamery
3977 Tennyson St
48 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
BEST ICE CREAM IN DENVER. This is quite a hike away, but worth it!

Drinks & Nightlife

new local micro-brewery
53 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Sloan's Bar & Grill
5850 W 25th Ave
53 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
new local micro-brewery
New-ish local microbrewery
85 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Hogshead Brewery
4460 W 29th Ave
85 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
New-ish local microbrewery
80s-style arcade! and a bar. can get crowded sometimes, but very fun. play some skeeball or frogger and re-live the 80s.
112 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
The 1UP Arcade Bar - LoDo
1925 Blake St
112 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
80s-style arcade! and a bar. can get crowded sometimes, but very fun. play some skeeball or frogger and re-live the 80s.
i've been wanting to go here but havent yet, but people rave about it. vintage/old school feel.
427 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Williams & Graham
3160 Tejon St
427 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
i've been wanting to go here but havent yet, but people rave about it. vintage/old school feel.
irish pub
12 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Paddy the Yank
3963 Tennyson St
12 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
irish pub
New local microbrewery. outdoor patio & lawn games.
39 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Strange Craft Beer Company
1330 Zuni St
39 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
New local microbrewery. outdoor patio & lawn games.
Great place to see live bands play.
67 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
The Hi-Dive
7 S Broadway
67 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Great place to see live bands play.
New brewery pretty close by
193 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Joyride Brewing Company
2501 Sheridan Boulevard
193 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
New brewery pretty close by
one of my favorite local micro-breweries. heavy metal themed, no pretension.
97 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
TRVE Brewing Co.
227 Broadway
97 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
one of my favorite local micro-breweries. heavy metal themed, no pretension.
one of my favorite local breweries. great beers and usually a fun vibe there.
238 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Great Divide Brewery
2201 Arapahoe St
238 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
one of my favorite local breweries. great beers and usually a fun vibe there.

Sightseeing

Largest lake in Denver, nice to take a walk or run around, sit & read, fly a kite, or just chill. Two playgrounds - one on the north side near 26th & Tennyson, one on the south side off of 17th Ave.
88 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Sloan's Lake Park
1700 N Sheridan Blvd
88 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Largest lake in Denver, nice to take a walk or run around, sit & read, fly a kite, or just chill. Two playgrounds - one on the north side near 26th & Tennyson, one on the south side off of 17th Ave.
Great art museum, unusual architecture (designed by Libeskind), plenty for even young kids to do, great multi-media event called "Untitled" the last Friday of each month.
1293 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Denver Art Museum
100 W 14th Ave Pkwy
1293 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Great art museum, unusual architecture (designed by Libeskind), plenty for even young kids to do, great multi-media event called "Untitled" the last Friday of each month.

Shopping

One of the best used bookstores in Denver. This whole area is a total local hotspot - too many restaurants etc to tag, but 32nd from about Julian to ~Mead is basically all restaurants & bars.
13 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
West Side Books
3434 W 32nd Ave
13 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
One of the best used bookstores in Denver. This whole area is a total local hotspot - too many restaurants etc to tag, but 32nd from about Julian to ~Mead is basically all restaurants & bars.
neighborhood's newest handmade ice cream shop. very tasty!
176 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Sweet Cow
3475 W 32nd Ave
176 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
neighborhood's newest handmade ice cream shop. very tasty!
In case you have any last-minute household needs.
134 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Target
1985 Sheridan Boulevard
134 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
In case you have any last-minute household needs.
great little used bookstore
6 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Capitol Hill Books
300 E Colfax Ave
6 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
great little used bookstore
One of my favorite shops in Denver. Neat plants & succulents, art, books, oddities.
19 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Ironwood
14 South Broadway
19 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
One of my favorite shops in Denver. Neat plants & succulents, art, books, oddities.
2nd location of fabulous bookstore you can get lost in.
153 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Tattered Cover Book Store - Colfax Avenue
2526 East Colfax Avenue
153 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
2nd location of fabulous bookstore you can get lost in.
one of my favorite used bookstores in the area
Fahrenheit's Books
1415 S Broadway
one of my favorite used bookstores in the area
fantastic little used bookstore w/ a great selection of comics & graphic novels, and very knowledgeable staff.
9 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Kilgore Books
624 E 13th Ave
9 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
fantastic little used bookstore w/ a great selection of comics & graphic novels, and very knowledgeable staff.
cute new bookstore w/ coffee & pastries
City Stacks Books and Coffee
1743 Wazee St
cute new bookstore w/ coffee & pastries

Everything Else

Good old-fashioned bowling alley. Lots of fun. Different special deals most nights of the week. (you may need to call ahead & reserve a lane on some nights, it gets hopping!)
Elitch Lanes
3825 Tennyson St
Good old-fashioned bowling alley. Lots of fun. Different special deals most nights of the week. (you may need to call ahead & reserve a lane on some nights, it gets hopping!)
tiny little place w/ yummy baked goods
123 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Wooden Spoon Cafe & Bakery
2418 W 32nd Ave
123 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
tiny little place w/ yummy baked goods
amazing breads & baked goods
26 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Denver Bread Co
3200 Irving St
26 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
amazing breads & baked goods
all vegan bakery & cafe!
60 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Beet Box
1030 E 22nd Ave
60 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
all vegan bakery & cafe!
Local university campus
6 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Auraria Higher Education Center
6 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Local university campus
long & narrow park w/ a little creek, running alongside the light rail line. my little boy loves exploring here. there's also a disc golf course.
6 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Lakewood / Dry Gulch Park
1100 Perry St
6 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
long & narrow park w/ a little creek, running alongside the light rail line. my little boy loves exploring here. there's also a disc golf course.
for any last minute needs
188 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Walgreens
801 16th St Mall
188 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
for any last minute needs
Fun little place - tons of household artifacts from the 50s & 60s.
82 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Kirkland Museum of Fine & Decorative Art
1201 Bannock St
82 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Fun little place - tons of household artifacts from the 50s & 60s.
fantastic bookstore (new and used), w/ coffee shop/cafe
93 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Tattered Cover Book Store - Union Station
1701 Wynkoop St
93 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
fantastic bookstore (new and used), w/ coffee shop/cafe
Light Rail train station just 3 minute walk away!
27 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Perry Station
27 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Light Rail train station just 3 minute walk away!
2nd light rail stop near my house
13 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Knox Station
13 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
2nd light rail stop near my house

Entertainment & Activities

I love this old run-down amusement park. Feels like something out of an old Alfred Hitchcock movie. only $2.50 to get in and rides are 0.50 to maybe $2.
134 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Lakeside Amusement Park
4601 Sheridan Boulevard
134 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
I love this old run-down amusement park. Feels like something out of an old Alfred Hitchcock movie. only $2.50 to get in and rides are 0.50 to maybe $2.
great place for kids
217 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
Museo ng mga Bata sa Denver sa Marsico Campus
2121 Children's Museum Dr
217 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
great place for kids
This museum is more kid-friendly than you'd think. My 7 year old has really enjoyed it since he was around 5 or so.
212 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
History Colorado Center
1200 N Broadway
212 lokal ang nagrerekomenda
This museum is more kid-friendly than you'd think. My 7 year old has really enjoyed it since he was around 5 or so.